A look at one 'stolen gun' case ....

[Karen Gordon]

What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.

The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.

Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.

"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.

"Why?" Hargreaves replied.

"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.

Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.

"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."

"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.

The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________

(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

[Spike]

Not surprising` Karen.
The police at public inquests say the are devastated when their actions
causing rape and death are made public.
The folks who allow crime to occur, turn a blind eye or as in my case
encourage crime, usually tell half truths at best.
They are devastated to get blamed for there criminal behavior, that's all.
It's easy to blame the Americans for guns when police here allow informants
to grow pot.
Take care
spike

See the police and crown try and bring our fine courts into disrepute at my
home page.
See the Crown (state) ignore federal guidelines to prevent wrongful
convictions.
http://thevandalnextdoordeaththreatsandmore.asar-intl.com/

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

[torresD]

Kidnap & Torture, USA Style
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11314.htm

Falluja - The Day After
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9010.htm

9/11 Dutch Documentary
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11222.htm

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised - Hugo Chavez Video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11167.htm

Noam Chomsky
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9274.htm


Iraq War Video
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video.htm

Purple Heart Video
http://www.purpleheartsbook.com/vid.php


When I Came Home - Video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7692.htm
Homeless vets, from Vietnam to Iraq
Director's note:

When I Came Home is a documentary
which follows the lives and struggles
of several homeless veterans,
including those who have recently
returned home from the war in Iraq.

[Aubrey]

Use the same tired old NRA argument that goes "The USA may have a homicide
rate thats 4 times that of almost all other western nations, but we've just
experienced a 5% drop! More proof that no gun control lowers crime!"

Gun Loon Logic. There isn't a city the size of Toronto in the USA that has
a homicide rate that's even double, most of them are 5-10 times Toronto's.

The break out the champaign and celebrate when they see a drop from 600
homicides per year to 575 per year (Toronto's 10 year average was less than
70, whith a spike last year of 85)! Meanwhile the gun loons say "this just
proves that no gun control works!"

[Chom Noamsky]

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Only police should have guns. Police NEVER do crooked and corrupt things.

[Karen Gordon]

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun
thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Only police should have guns. Police NEVER do crooked and corrupt things.

(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

[Chom Noamsky]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun
thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Only police should have guns. Police NEVER do crooked and corrupt things.

(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

"It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this discussion."

Good one Karen, you just used exactly the same rationale as the gun owners
have since the registry issue started.

[Alan Baker]

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

[dangdangdoodle3]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

Since the assumption of your post is precisely false, how do you expect
to come to any correct conclusions.
Not only that, but you are also against the gun registration program so
you are making it harder for police to do the jobs you're accusing them
of not doing.
go figer.

[Alan Baker]

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

Since the assumption of your post is precisely false, how do you expect
to come to any correct conclusions.
Not only that, but you are also against the gun registration program so
you are making it harder for police to do the jobs you're accusing them
of not doing.
go figer.

It is? Then, by all means, show me how?

And how does my being against the program make the slightest bit of
difference to the police?

[dangdangdoodle3]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is
now
a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

Since the assumption of your post is precisely false, how do you expect
to come to any correct conclusions.
Not only that, but you are also against the gun registration program so
you are making it harder for police to do the jobs you're accusing them
of not doing.
go figer.

It is? Then, by all means, show me how?

A simple police patrol for instance, indicates 1) they are doing
"something" and 2) your assumption is false.

Post by Alan Baker
And how does my being against the program make the slightest bit of
difference to the police?

It'd be wise if you made the effort to correct your own thinking.

[Alan Baker]

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call
from
a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is
now
a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun
thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

Since the assumption of your post is precisely false, how do you expect
to come to any correct conclusions.
Not only that, but you are also against the gun registration program so
you are making it harder for police to do the jobs you're accusing them
of not doing.
go figer.

It is? Then, by all means, show me how?

A simple police patrol for instance, indicates 1) they are doing
"something" and 2) your assumption is false.

And would those police patrols be any different if people didn't own
guns? Are you really saying that there are special police patrols that
only exist because people own guns?

LOL

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker
And how does my being against the program make the slightest bit of
difference to the police?

It'd be wise if you made the effort to correct your own thinking.

No answer? I understand.

[dangdangdoodle3]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the
high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor
named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that
one
of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide
involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call
from
a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun
had
been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is
now
a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons --
despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and
that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave
McLeod,
head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe
storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun
thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work
the
U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll
need
to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

Since the assumption of your post is precisely false, how do you expect
to come to any correct conclusions.
Not only that, but you are also against the gun registration program so
you are making it harder for police to do the jobs you're accusing them
of not doing.
go figer.

It is? Then, by all means, show me how?

A simple police patrol for instance, indicates 1) they are doing
"something" and 2) your assumption is false.

And would those police patrols be any different if people didn't own
guns? Are you really saying that there are special police patrols that
only exist because people own guns?
LOL

Laughing at your own mistakes is healthy. Laughing at your own denial is
not.
You didn't say doing anything precisely "different, or specific" for gun
owners. You just said "precisely nothing."

Post by Alan Baker

Post by dangdangdoodle3

Post by Alan Baker
And how does my being against the program make the slightest bit of
difference to the police?

It'd be wise if you made the effort to correct your own thinking.

No answer? I understand.

If you did you wouldn't have asked in the first place. (You voted for
those who were against the gun registry, and speak out against it....duh)

Admitting your mistake would be the best thing. In any case, this thread
is done afaic.

[Karen Gordon]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

(K): Are you saying the police should be protecting firearms stored within
private residences? This from a guy who still can't absorb that BC Ferries
is a private corporation?

[Alan Baker]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Karen Gordon
What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile
story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named
Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was
away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were
stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns.
The true hook on which the story hung, however, was the fact that one of
those stolen guns was used last September in a triple homicide involving
suspected gangbangers.
Hargreaves, in a phone call from Florida, remembers getting a call from a
senior officer at 41 Division.
"Where's your Glock?" he was asked.
"Why?" Hargreaves replied.
"Because it's sitting here on my desk," said the officer.
Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been
involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a
warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite
the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that
it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge
hammers to gain access to it.
"I went far and beyond what was legally required," said Hargreaves,
indicating the vault was so heavy "that the elevator dropped 15 cm when
the safe was loaded on."
"It was hardly unsafe storage," he said.
The fact that one of Hargreaves' guns ended up in the hands of a gang
member, however, seemingly came as no surprise to Insp. Dave McLeod, head
of the Toronto Police's newly minted urban organized crime squad.
________________________________
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Since the police are doing precisely nothing to prevent the theft of
firearms from private residences, how will this free up any resources?

(K): Are you saying the police should be protecting firearms stored within
private residences? This from a guy who still can't absorb that BC Ferries
is a private corporation?

It isn't a private corporation. As I've proven repeatedly.

It is entirely owned (common shares) by the BC Ferry Authority which is
itself entirely owned by the Government of BC.

And, no. But you're arguing that if we take guns out of private hands
then there will be resources available to police our borders that are
somehow being used in other ways now, and it isn't so.

[Detector]

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns. Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents. No gun thefts.
No domestic shootings. No gun suicides. Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

Karen Tse Tung: "All power to the state! Disarm the people! Guns are evil!
If you get killed by a violent criminal, call the police. Weakness is
strength. Preparedness is stupidity. We all need the government to babysit
us!"

[Karen Gordon]

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this
discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

Good one Karen, you just used exactly the same rationale as the gun owners
have since the registry issue started.

(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale". They use all sorts of flawed
and inaccurate and biased statements to back their retention of guns.

This last poster seems to think that people in society should be gun-armed
against "crooked and corrupt" people. That's "rational"? And when guns are
stolen from homeowners who sometimes report - and many times DO NOT report -
the theft, there are 'abuses' on both sides of that firearm in society.

The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.

[ös.net]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this
discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

Good one Karen, you just used exactly the same rationale as the gun owners
have since the registry issue started.

(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale". They use all sorts of flawed
and inaccurate and biased statements to back their retention of guns.

Anit Gun advocates have never used "rationale". They use all sorts of
flawed and inaccurate and biased statements to back their prohibition
and restriction of guns.

Post by Karen Gordon
This last poster seems to think that people in society should be gun-armed
against "crooked and corrupt" people. That's "rational"? And when guns are
stolen from homeowners who sometimes report - and many times DO NOT report -
the theft, there are 'abuses' on both sides of that firearm in society.
The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.

What about the police or the military?
A significant number of firerarms are stolen from the police and
military and used in crimes.
Denis Lorte comes to mind, and some people in Calgary who did an armed
robbery on a bank.



take the ö out of ***@teluös.net to email me

[Chom Noamsky]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this
discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

Good one Karen, you just used exactly the same rationale as the gun owners
have since the registry issue started.

(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale". They use all sorts of flawed
and inaccurate and biased statements to back their retention of guns.
This last poster seems to think that people in society should be gun-armed
against "crooked and corrupt" people. That's "rational"? And when guns are
stolen from homeowners who sometimes report - and many times DO NOT report -
the theft, there are 'abuses' on both sides of that firearm in society.
The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption only government should be
entrusted with weapons.

When does anyone put 100% faith in a government body to act correctly and
never abuse it's power?

Only if you are a complete believer in totalitarian states.

[W]

they need to be relieved of the right to own ...

I see (!) , you WANT the conservatives to win? Given similar comments
from the Ontario provincial Liberals, I'm beginning to see why so many
high profile liberals don't want to lead the party. They, after all
have something to lose as well.

FYI, the _slightest_ hint that property rights are impugned in this
country will be a virtual death sentence for the nations economy. And
you sure as hell did more than hint at it with that line. I'm sure all
those people who have lost or are about to lose their jobs will thank
you and the liberals for guaranteeing that.

[Richard]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): It's only their abuse of guns that would be pertinent to this
discussion.
If it were "crooked and corrupt things" that people would need to be
armed against, we would need to arm against most corporations and their
political minions.

Good one Karen, you just used exactly the same rationale as the gun owners
have since the registry issue started.

(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale". They use all sorts of flawed
and inaccurate and biased statements to back their retention of guns.
This last poster seems to think that people in society should be gun-armed
against "crooked and corrupt" people. That's "rational"? And when guns are
stolen from homeowners who sometimes report - and many times DO NOT report -
the theft, there are 'abuses' on both sides of that firearm in society.
The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.
---
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"The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the

hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms."

based on your line of thinking Karen, then we should be relieved of our
right to own anything. Anything can be used to commit crimes knives,
cars, motorcycles, wood (can make weapons from them... any type of
metal?) no what needs to happen is that the criminal laws that are in
place be enforced properly and/or let people use deadly force to protect
their property.


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[Opeongo]

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): How can any storage in a private residence be termed 'safe storage'
if the criminal element can get at the guns? Are we kidding here?
Ban all handguns.

They are already banned.

Post by Karen Gordon
Nada in anyone's home. No gun accidents.

I would have thought that gun accidents would be up your alley - that
way there would be less gun users. But this thinking is silly. Thousands
of people every year are killed in Canada because of car accidents. So
should we ban cars????

Post by Karen Gordon
No gun thefts.

Hello increased gun imports.

Post by Karen Gordon
No domestic shootings.

The rate for domestic shootings is already lower than some countries
that have less gun ownership.

Post by Karen Gordon
No gun suicides.

What's wrong with gun suicides? I mean - aside from the mess they make?
No where near as tidy as a hanging. Speaking of which - maybe we should
ban rope. Or at least have people register it.

Post by Karen Gordon
Let the criminals work the U.S.
border to access illegal guns. And that's the ONLY place we'll need to
focus our police resources on.

I'm all for this banning gun thing if you want to foot the bill for the
federal workers who will have to control migratory bird and other animal
populations. I'd rather have the hunters do it.

But maybe we should look into banning STEALING first.

Again, just an idea.

You're obviously a city dweller with no grasp on the needs of the rural
population of this country.

Take a trip.

[Karen Gordon]

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale".
[...]
The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption only government should be
entrusted with weapons.
When does anyone put 100% faith in a government body to act correctly and
never abuse it's power?
Only if you are a complete believer in totalitarian states.

(K): You might want to note that it is the Harper Cons who are proposing
a much-expanded military (government) and put them into our cities. You
want a 'totalitarian state'.... you're gonna get one started as soon as
this control fanatic is sworn in tomorrow......
_______________________________

CBC NEWS - Wed, 28 Dec 2005

Harper pledges to boost military presence in cities


Conservative Leader Stephen Harper was back on the campaign trail this
week, promising to beef up military presence in major cities to respond to
emergencies.

"A large number of our cities have no military presence," Harper said
while campaigning on Vancouver Island Tuesday.

If he's elected Jan. 23, Harper said, territorial battalions made up of
100 regular troops and 400 or more reservists would be stationed in
Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, the Toronto area and other major
metropolitan areas.

"This is a full military presence," he added. "Obviously we would
anticipate that its domestic need would be in case of disaster...but
obviously they would be military forces that could be forward-deployed in
the event of more serious military conflict elsewhere."

The Conservative leader said he would boost the military's presence in
British Columbia and across Western Canada because the West Coast is vital
to national sovereignty.

He said Canada currently does not have the capacity to respond to crises
in its own back yard, especially in British Columbia.

"British Columbia is now the only region of the country without a regular
army presence," he said.
________________________________________

(K): See how the 'totalitarian governments' start?..... by enlarging their
military power 'for our protection'. One would have to ask:
1. WHO are the enemies we're arming against? (Harper has named the U.S. in
our northern waters).
2. If we have no immediate and identifiable enemies, why would our government
be proposing 'an expanded military with a presence in our cities'?

Harper is just a younger version of a George W Bush or an Adolf Hitler.
Softer approach. Same objective. .....population control in the event of
backlash against government policies. And your handguns are going to be
useless against the forces of military power. Tell me that 'Libertarians'
had nothing to do with electing the likes of the Harper Conservatives ....

[Cam]

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): You might want to note that it is the Harper Cons who are proposing
a much-expanded military (government) and put them into our cities. You
want a 'totalitarian state'.... you're gonna get one started as soon as
this control fanatic is sworn in tomorrow......

Liberals spend $2 billion making a list of guns.

Liberal registry sells list to criminals so they know where to B & E to steal
hand guns.

Liberals use the fact guns are being stolen to justify banning all hand guns.

The liberal way!

[Colin Grafton]

Post by Cam
Liberal registry sells list to criminals so they know where to B & E to steal
hand guns.

Proof that the term "gun loon" is accurate. This one's a paranoid and
delusionary gun loon who needs to make things up because he doesn't have
any facts to support his position.

Then he expects his fellow gun loons to nod obediently in agreement with
his bull shit.

[Cam]

Post by Colin Grafton

Post by Cam
Liberal registry sells list to criminals so they know where to B & E to steal
hand guns.

Proof that the term "gun loon" is accurate. This one's a paranoid and
delusionary gun loon who needs to make things up because he doesn't have
any facts to support his position.
Then he expects his fellow gun loons to nod obediently in agreement with
his bull shit.

Everything I said, DID happen just as I said. And I don't own a gun, so
stick your useless gun loon argument (if you can call it that) up your Arse!


Liberals DID spend $2 billion making a list of guns.

Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so they know where to B &
E to steal
hand guns.

Liberals DID use the fact guns are being stolen to justify banning all
hand guns.

The liberal way!

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Cam
Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so
they know where to B & E to steal hand guns.

When and where did this happen?

[Cam]

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam
Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so
they know where to B & E to steal hand guns.

When and where did this happen?

Read the article about the guy's lawyer believing they can sue the
Ontario government for failing to secure names and addressed of
ammunition and gun sales and since the bad guys are able to cherry pick
they feel that the addresses of the guns have been compromised.

Post by Andrew Chaplin
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Cam

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam
Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so
they know where to B & E to steal hand guns.

When and where did this happen?

Read the article about the guy's lawyer believing they can sue the
Ontario government for failing to secure names and addressed of
ammunition and gun sales and since the bad guys are able to cherry pick
they feel that the addresses of the guns have been compromised.

What guy? Can you point me to the article or a paper and approximate date of
publication? No such link is in the posts that have appeared in ott.general.

[Cam]

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam
Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so
they know where to B & E to steal hand guns.

When and where did this happen?

Read the article about the guy's lawyer believing they can sue the
Ontario government for failing to secure names and addressed of
ammunition and gun sales and since the bad guys are able to cherry pick
they feel that the addresses of the guns have been compromised.

What guy? Can you point me to the article or a paper and approximate date of
publication? No such link is in the posts that have appeared in ott.general.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Here this is the article I was referring to.

Dozens of handguns stolen in Oshawa
Feb. 3, 2006. 11:35 PM
STAN JOSEY AND NICOLAAS VAN RIJN
STAFF REPORTERS


Forty handguns including tiny Derringer-like pocket pistols discovered stolen
from an Oshawa house yesterday could have disappeared anytime within the past
12 days, says the man who spent a lifetime collecting the weapons.

Ken Foster, 67, said he arrived home from hospital yesterday to discover the
back door of his Front St. home kicked in and the gun and ammunition cabinets
upstairs broken open and emptied.

?I was shocked,? the pensioned gun collector told the Toronto Star in an
interview at his home last night. ?I?m never going to be able to replace
them.? Foster said the weapons, which he collected over a 56-year period,
were all legally purchased, registered, and stored safely.

Asked if he was worried about the damage the stolen guns could do on the
street, Foster replied, ?Well, yes.?

The incident is believed to be the biggest known theft of handguns in recent
Ontario history.

Durham Regional Police Det. Const. Ron Kapuscinski said there was nothing to
set Foster?s house apart, or to distinguish it as a gun collector?s home.

?It doesn?t appear to be targeted, and it?s not the typical, `Look at me, I
have handguns? kind of residence,? Kapuscinski told the Star?s Alwynne Gwilt.
?And he?s not the guy who?d go around telling people he had them.?

In a statement, Durham police said ?The guns were locked up in the residence
and storage charges against the homeowner are not anticipated.?

The guns, all in working condition and some dating back to the early 1900s,
were in a locked steel storage cabinet, Foster said, and ammunition for the
handguns was stored separately in another locked steel cabinet.

A retired welder who travelled across Canada in his day working on nuclear
plants, Foster said he made the awful discovery yesterday when he came home
by taxi from hospital, where he?d spent the past six weeks being treated for
a stroke.

Foster, who lost both legs four years ago because of complications from
diabetes, struggled outside in his wheelchair, hailed a passer-by, and asked
him to call police.

When Durham officers arrived at the house at about 11:30 a.m. yesterday and
discovered what they were dealing with, Foster admitted, ?they were upset.?

Also missing was about $1,000 in change.

Foster said police spent from about noon until 5:30 p.m., dusting the
residence for fingerprints and examining it for other clues that may have
been left behind. A friend last checked the house about 12 days ago, Foster
said, and found everything secure.

Foster, who said he was aware of the recent rash of gun-related crimes that
has swept much of the Greater Toronto area, defended his ownership of the
weapons.

?I have a right to own these guns,? he said. ?I paid for them with my own
money. I registered them all. I kept them stored safely.?

The theft is the biggest known gun haul here in memory.

In Dec. 2003 thieves broke into the public housing apartment of longtime
Toronto gun instructor and collector Mike Hargreaves and made off with more
than 32 handguns, machine guns and rifles from a locked gun cabinet.

Gun collector Lionel Weese returned to his Consecon, Ont., home last Dec. 8
to find that thieves had stolen 23 handguns, including five powerful .45-cal.
pistols. Weese, a tow truck driver, had been lured out of the house by a
false call; the guns were stolen in his 20-minute absence.

Also last year Toronto lawyer Arthur Brown said 17 guns stored in his
Parliament St. office in downtown Toronto were stolen. The theft was
discovered when firefighters responding to a fire alarm found two containers
of ammunition on the floor; police say one of Brown?s guns has been
recovered.

Although Durham police say Foster?s house doesn?t appear to have been
targeted, police in Toronto say criminals are seeking out gun collectors and
marking their houses and offices for later burglary.

It isn?t difficult to determine where gun collectors live, investigators say,
noting the addresses of private gun clubs are public, and anyone purchasing
ammunition must log their name and address in store ledgers that are often
left open on the counter. People can also be followed home from gun shows and
shooting ranges.

And correspondence from the chief firearms officer for Ontario to gun owners
is stamped on the front in bold letters from the "CHIEF FIREARMS OFFICE"
alerting anyone who sees the mail that the recipient may be a gun collector.

Stolen guns have been used in a rash of shootings, robberies and killings
across southern Ontario. Police say one of the most dramatic examples of the
damage they can do came last Sept. 16, when a gun battle involving one of the
powerful Glock semi-automatic pistols stolen from Hargreaves? apartment left
three men dead in and around a BMW parked behind a building at 75 Tandridge
Cres. in Etobicoke.

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Cam

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Cam
Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals so
they know where to B & E to steal hand guns.

When and where did this happen?

Read the article about the guy's lawyer believing they can sue the
Ontario government for failing to secure names and addressed of
ammunition and gun sales and since the bad guys are able to cherry pick
they feel that the addresses of the guns have been compromised.

What guy? Can you point me to the article or a paper and

approximate date of

Post by Cam

Post by Andrew Chaplin
publication? No such link is in the posts that have appeared in ott.general.

Here this is the article I was referring to.
Dozens of handguns stolen in Oshawa
Feb. 3, 2006. 11:35 PM
STAN JOSEY AND NICOLAAS VAN RIJN
STAFF REPORTERS
Forty handguns including tiny Derringer-like pocket pistols

discovered stolen

Post by Cam
from an Oshawa house yesterday could have disappeared anytime within the past
12 days, says the man who spent a lifetime collecting the weapons.
Ken Foster, 67, said he arrived home from hospital yesterday to discover the
back door of his Front St. home kicked in and the gun and ammunition cabinets
upstairs broken open and emptied.

<snip>

While the article suggests that locations of gun collections have been
somehow compromised, it offers no proof of its except circumstantial
evidence and stops well short of even suggesting as you asserted that
the "Liberal registry DID sells list to criminals...."

[Chom Noamsky]

Post by Karen Gordon

Post by Chom Noamsky

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): Gun advocates have never used "rationale".
[...]
The fact remains that if homeowners cannot keep their firearms out of the
hands of criminals, they need to be relieved of the right to own firearms.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption only government should be
entrusted with weapons.
When does anyone put 100% faith in a government body to act correctly and
never abuse it's power?
Only if you are a complete believer in totalitarian states.

(K): You might want to note that it is the Harper Cons who are proposing
a much-expanded military (government) and put them into our cities. You
want a 'totalitarian state'.... you're gonna get one started as soon as
this control fanatic is sworn in tomorrow......

How about your signature, "The government cannot be smarter than the
people."

In the cases of firearms you feel government IS smarter?

You gotta at least try to be consistent.

Post by Karen Gordon
(K): See how the 'totalitarian governments' start?..... by enlarging their
1. WHO are the enemies we're arming against? (Harper has named the U.S. in
our northern waters).
2. If we have no immediate and identifiable enemies, why would our government
be proposing 'an expanded military with a presence in our cities'?

Totalitarian regimes start by disarming the population and taking away their
ability to rebel. First, you put names to guns so you know where they are.
Second, when it comes time to disarm the population you know exactly where
to find the weapons. I'm no fan of Harper but he is against the registry
for financial reasons. If he had any secret desires of totalitarian rule he
would endorse the registry 100%. Why would he destroy the one useful tool
for disarming the people?

I suspect Harper is all bluster when it comes to military ambitions. He
wants to project leadership and strength even if just in image. Some people
vote for that kind of thing, it appeals to the nationalists and
soveriegnists.

Post by Karen Gordon
Harper is just a younger version of a George W Bush or an Adolf Hitler.
Softer approach. Same objective. .....population control in the event of
backlash against government policies.

Again, Harper would have been behind the gun registry 100% if that was the
case.

Post by Karen Gordon
And your handguns are going to be
useless against the forces of military power. Tell me that 'Libertarians'
had nothing to do with electing the likes of the Harper Conservatives ....

Right, and the 2.3 million Canadian citizens who own rifles would be useless
against government. Maybe we need more guns and more powerful guns?

Any who, I don't believe in 100 years it would ever come to that, but it's
sure fun to play with your paranoia.